[Feature] [Feature Req] VOTE IN THE POLL!! Option to disable Popcorn Upscaling - let your TV/AVR upscale

[HeartWare]

(08-09-2010 03:40 PM)nicob Wrote:  easy.. those are just default 480p resolutions...

No, they're not... The 640x480 at 1:2.21 aspect ratio does not have any black bars - it's anamorphic and intended for display at a resolution of 1060x480, which is not a standard HDMI resolution, and neither is 640x480.

(08-09-2010 03:40 PM)nicob Wrote:  I think you can't ask from syabas to fix faulty encoded videos (by implementing black bar detection)

These aren't "faulty encoded videos". They're perfectly valid videos within the MPEG-4 specification and at the moment my PCH has no problems displaying these (I have a few of them, which I have encoded myself).

My point was simply to illustrate that a "Source Direct" mode does not make any sense, as the resolutions you can (and will) encounter may not match any valid HDMI resolution, and if your PCH starts outputting these resolutions over HDMI, your scaler will not be able to make heads nor tails of it, not to mention that an anamorphic expansion has to be performed somewhere...

[accident]

considering we're talking hdmi here, not sure what the drivers allow but the device on the other side should be saying what it supports so this feature is very possible without causing a incompatible signal situation.. the pch just needs to be smart in picking that 1: it can do that resolution and 2: picking a resolution that will help keep the quality higher.

In the case of hdcp, the device on the other side dictates what resolution to be at so it makes it even easier when you change resolutions, it should come back with what to use and hdcp breaks if you don't follow

[Evil Engineer]

(08-09-2010 03:05 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  Which resolution should a file of 640x480 in 1:2.21 aspect ratio be output as?

Well, technically 640x480 is an NTSC resolution and could be legitimately output as 480p full frame (4:3) seeing as there isn't a 2.21:1 output flag in the HDMI spec.

However, I'm assuming you would like to see the aspect ratio preserved.

In which case you would need 480x2.21=1061 horizontal pixels. Therefore output should switch to 720p (1280x720) as the lowest resolution with enough pixels to correctly display the image at the intended aspect ratio.

(08-09-2010 03:05 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  Or an 853x480 file?

Output should switch to 720p as the lowest resolution with enough pixels to display the image.

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(08-09-2010 06:50 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  These aren't "faulty encoded videos". They're perfectly valid videos within the MPEG-4 specification and at the moment my PCH has no problems displaying these (I have a few of them, which I have encoded myself).

Both of your examples may be "perfectly valid" but both are non-standard in video terms. The Popcornhour is an AV device and not a computer and as such should only output standard video resolutions (480i/p,576i/p,720p,1080i&1080p).

(08-09-2010 06:50 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  My point was simply to illustrate that a "Source Direct" mode does not make any sense, as the resolutions you can (and will) encounter may not match any valid HDMI resolution, and if your PCH starts outputting these resolutions over HDMI, your scaler will not be able to make heads nor tails of it, not to mention that an anamorphic expansion has to be performed somewhere...

A "Source Direct" mode makes perfect sense for those of us that only encode in legitimate video resolutions.

If it encounters a non standard resolution as in both of your examples the PCH should simply switch to the lowest legitimate resolution with enough pixels to display it.

If you don't like the resulting picture because it results in boarders on all four sides (as would be the case in both of your examples) you can simply switch source direct off and use the PCH in exactly the same way as you do now.

[HeartWare]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here:

My TV doesn't support 1080p/1080i, so when I play a file which is too big to be shown in 720p resolution, I want it to be scaled to 720p, whereas other resolutions should be presented as close as "source direct" as possible (qua your specification above).

As you can see, it not a simple thing to provide this kind of support. There are many, many, many other things that needs to be taking into account, which you may not consider important or even think about, but the engineers/programmers who are supposed to program this have to make sure that all these many combinations of HDMI/Component/Analog output and all the varying input sizes and what does the playback support for resolutions.

It'll be necessary to implement a whole new set of configuration items in order for the various people to be able to tell the PCH what they want done in any particular situation, with all the additional possibilities for problems and errors to creep in.

Many of you may believe that it's a simple request, but it's not - it's a very complicated issue because the engineers need not only support your particular setup, but need to support all kinds of mysterious combinations of setups that you probably haven't even dreamed of...

I think a much easier way will be for the engineers to allow you to switch output resolution easily while playing back a file. That, at least, will be much easier to implement, I would expect, and it'll eliminate all the problems associated with all the odd resolutions and combinations of equipment the device may encounter.

[deh2k7]

I'd like to add support for this as well. I have requested it before but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. Maybe this time it will get the attention that it needs.

After reading the thread - I have to say, I'm a bit disappointed with the resistance to this feature. It should be practically be a given that this feature already be there. The resistance seems to come from people who are already working with non-standard resolutions (relative to video standards, not MPG standard).

Keep in mind just because it's not easy doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. Simplicity to the end-user is key here, not what's easiest for the developers. That's why this is still considered an enthusiast product. There are just so many examples of 'workarounds' that present additional hassle to usability, and saying it's easier to just let you switch resolutions during playback is just that - a workaround, and not a solution.

[jj666]

I'll add a bump, my friend is using a Radiance scaler and this would be great advantage for him whilst playing back DVD's - since the update from his old Leesa, the SD Sky which he's also feeding into the projector is looking a lot nicer.

And as for non standard resolutions as mentioned above, I don't think anyone owning an external scaler and a good setup would be feeding such re-encoded material into their system.

Cheers,

-jj-

[HeartWare]

It may be a workaround, but it may also be either that or nothing...

[Evil Engineer]

(08-09-2010 08:53 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  Just playing Devil's Advocate here:

My TV doesn't support 1080p/1080i, so when I play a file which is too big to be shown in 720p resolution, I want it to be scaled to 720p, whereas other resolutions should be presented as close as "source direct" as possible (qua your specification above).

There are two ways round this.

1. You would have the PCH set at 720p output for general usage and the UI. Source Direct would only activate for Resolutions BELOW this
2. A set up page would have a list of supported output resolutions where you you could de-select any not supported by your display
   

BTW, I would be very suprised if your 720p display didn't support 1080i. It's a basic HD resolution and has been around since the very beginning of HDTV. Way, way before 1080p became available.

(08-09-2010 08:53 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  As you can see, it not a simple thing to provide this kind of support. There are many, many, many other things that needs to be taking into account, which you may not consider important or even think about, but the engineers/programmers who are supposed to program this have to make sure that all these many combinations of HDMI/Component/Analog output and all the varying input sizes and what does the playback support for resolutions.).

Sorry, don't see the problem here.

Component supports all standard HD resolutions up to and including 1080i. Source direct would work as advertised for everything except blu-ray and that could easily be output as 1080i.

Analog (I assume you mean composite) only supports SD (480i/p & 576i/p) anyway. How would it be any different to the current situation? What would happen if you had a composite connection and tried to play your 853x480 file as things stand?

In any potential situation the worst case is that the picture goes blank on playback, you press stop and get returned to the UI at your pre-set resolution. A bit of programming by Syabas could present you with a "Source Direct not supported by current connection" message instead.

(08-09-2010 08:53 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  It'll be necessary to implement a whole new set of configuration items in order for the various people to be able to tell the PCH what they want done in any particular situation, with all the additional possibilities for problems and errors to creep in.).

It's an "advanced feature". Doesn't seem unreasonable to me for it to have it's own set up page.

Compared to getting the PCH networked and streaming properly it's not exactly a complex procedure!

(08-09-2010 08:53 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  Many of you may believe that it's a simple request, but it's not - it's a very complicated issue because the engineers need not only support your particular setup, but need to support all kinds of mysterious combinations of setups that you probably haven't even dreamed of...

It's not that hard. There's only three possible connection types. The logic chain is pretty simple:

1. Check file resolution
2. Determine lowest AV resolution with enough pixels to display file at 1:1
3. Check user's preferred output resolutions list from set-up page. If unavailable display message and commence playback with scaling.
4. Check connection type supports preferred output resolution. If unsupported display message and commence playback with scaling.
5. Commence playback at preferred resolution without scaling (source direct)
   

It would also be entirely possible for Syabas to limit "Source Direct" to HDMI connections only!

(08-09-2010 08:53 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  I think a much easier way will be for the engineers to allow you to switch output resolution easily while playing back a file. That, at least, will be much easier to implement, I would expect, and it'll eliminate all the problems associated with all the odd resolutions and combinations of equipment the device may encounter.

Not very wife/girlfriend/child friendly, is it?

I would prefer to see a user definable "prefered output resolution" to be kept in the NMJ meta data if a propper source direct mode was deemed too complicated. It would be a pain in the backside for a large collection but still way better than manual selection every time you tried watching something.

[nicob]

(08-09-2010 06:50 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  No, they're not... The 640x480 at 1:2.21 aspect ratio does not have any black bars - it's anamorphic and intended for display at a resolution of 1060x480, which is not a standard HDMI resolution, and neither is 640x480.

I really don't see the problem. The only thing that changes is that square vs retangle pixels. The amount of pixels stay the same...

Popcorn can just output 480p using widescreen signaling.
If the popcorn doesn't have support for that, you can use 4:3 letterbox on your TV or scaler... These things do good scalers very well and thats why this feature was requested!

That your tv has a NATIVE resolution of 1060x480 is ok. And you are using the right methode to get the optimal screen result.
This is more or less the same I did with my old Plasma HD ready screen. It had a native resolution of 1024x768. And using my PC (which was VGA connected) I squeezed 16:9 to 4:3 with mediacenter.

(08-09-2010 08:53 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  Just playing Devil's Advocate here:

My TV doesn't support 1080p/1080i, so when I play a file which is too big to be shown in 720p resolution, I want it to be scaled to 720p, whereas other resolutions should be presented as close as "source direct" as possible (qua your specification above).

These things are agreed upon by the (HDMI/component) handshake... As accident state before.

Don't get me wrong... I like that you play the devil's advocate, since it keeps the discussion alive and actually gives me some more concrete thinking to do, but I really don't see the problem why this is so dificult... since all the ground basic stuff seems to be already there in the popcorn.

The only option you need to add have in my opion is:
Video Input:
Source Input (50Hz)
Source Input (60Hz)
Source Input (24Hz,60Hz) <-- since 24hz is only available on 1080p and since new tvs only have this function (which have a 120Hz or a multiple native) 60Hz should be for lower resolutions... since it can be divided by the native hertz... This makes pulling Up possible, without pullingdown

And if you select and Source input option , theTV Type option and Video zoom gets disabled, since it does not have relevance. Since video zoom should be Fit to screen (and this automatically takes care of wacky formats (and point 3 of evil engineers post), which are converted to the first availabe standard resolution!) and TV Type is actually a setting that isn't relevant with source input.

[HeartWare]

(08-10-2010 04:32 PM)nicob Wrote:  Popcorn can just output 480p using widescreen signaling.

WideScreen Signaling isn't available on HDMI connections, so - no, it can't...

[nicob]

(08-10-2010 04:49 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  WideScreen Signaling isn't available on HDMI connections, so - no, it can't...

True... my mistake

I thought about it, and if you have your scaler which is the best place anyway (TV or AVR or other) set to Full screen... It will get automatically stretched.... since popcorn will output 640x480 which is 4:3, so no problem there

[HeartWare]

Except that this would stretch it to 853x480 which wouldn't be a 1:2.21 aspect ratio, but a 1:1.78 one, which would mean that the aspect would be wrong.

So - still no go .

Besides, I wouldn't want all 640x480 stretched. My TV Series re-encodes are also done at 640x480, but in 4:3 (1:1.33) aspect ratio, or in 16:9 (1:1.78), so some of these should be stretched, and some of these shouldn't be stretched... How would the external scaler know the difference between a 1:2.21, a 1:1.78 and a 1:1.33 aspect 640x480 resolution video? Answer: It can't...

[nicob]

(08-10-2010 05:32 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  Except that this would stretch it to 853x480 which wouldn't be a 1:2.21 aspect ratio, but a 1:1.78 one, which would mean that the aspect would be wrong.

So you are setting the 1:2.21 pixel aspect ratio as an scaling option flag in your own mkvs? If that is the case I finally understand why it currently works on the popcorn scaling...
And the only solution would be the zooming functions of your external scaler to set manual or the 720p solution of Evil Engineer or even 1061x480 should be considered 480p since it is always about the vertical lines... for most devices, maybe thats an option.

But that the pixel aspect ratio differs from the display aspect ratio is quite rare (and more computer and no video standard, see also Computer Representations of Video) thus should not be an argument to have no source direct feature at all, and you can even debate if you want to fix that... (if the conclusion is that there is no way for the external scaler to know)

BTW votes are still very welcome!

[HeartWare]

(08-10-2010 06:09 PM)nicob Wrote:  So you are setting the 1:2.21 pixel aspect ratio as an scaling option flag in your own mkvs?

Yes... When I converted my Lord of the Rings special extended editions from DVD to MPEG-4, I encoded them at 720x464 at 1:2.21 apect ratio so that they would be scaled to 1024x464 (like the original 720x576 would have been scaled to 1024x576 but with large black bars). This way, I preserve the maximum amount of resolution in that I only cut away at the black bars but preserve the full-width anamorphic resolution.

So all my 1:2.35 or higher DVDs I convert to 1:2.21 resolution to preserve as much information as possible. Therefore 1:2.21 anamorphic files are not uncommon in my setup (which illustrates my point that the engineers need to take into consideration a lot more things that you may think of, and therefore it isn't as simple as it looks from outside).

[Evil Engineer]

(08-10-2010 04:49 PM)HeartWare Wrote:  WideScreen Signaling isn't available on HDMI connections, so - no, it can't...

Are you sure?

My stand alone DVD player has no problems at all switching between full frame (4:3) and widescreen (16:9) aspect ratios.

I'm fairly certain that HDMI does have a widescreen flag. BUT it would only apply to standard definition 480i/p and 576i/p because 720p and 1080i/p are widescreen (16:9) anyway.

However, there is only a 16:9 flag in the AV world. There's no such thing as 2.2:1 flag.

Bottom line:
The C200 is an AV component, not a computer. It should behave like an AV component and adhere to AV specifications with regards to resolutions and flags. If you encode to non AV standards then "source direct" isn't for you. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful for a great number of people.